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PostPosted: November 19th, 2021, 8:32 am 
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Today, November 19, 2021, Ghostbusters: Afterlife is released, almost a year and a half after its originally planned date.

It's been five years since the last time a Ghostbusters movie made it into theatres. It's been thirty-two years since the last one set in the universe of the original. To borrow a few phrases from myself five years ago: It's been a long, strange journey to get to this day--full of setbacks, reversals, joy, despair, and lots of dead ends and assorted moments of the internet at its best and its worst. The movie we're getting is, to borrow a phrase, the one a lot of Ghostheads wanted; time to see if it's the one we needed.

Whatever the end result, it's been quite a ride.

When/if you see it, this is the place to talk about it now that it's out.

Spoilers allowed on this thread, so if you don't want them, quit now. :lol:

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PostPosted: November 20th, 2021, 7:29 pm 
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I've seen the movie. I laughed, I ugly cried close to the end, and there are a couple of things that we were close to in our discussions, others we were so far out in left field that we couldn't see where we came from.

https://youtu.be/YGF6bjR4HD0 This is a spoiler review for the movie from GhostbustersNews.Com that made shorter work of explaining the movie than I could do, so go watch that if you wanna be spoiled hard.

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PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 4:55 am 
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honestly. there is so much to talk about I'm not sure where to start frankly.
I'm most likely going to go see it again.. I went into it so guarded that I didn't find myself enjoying it till the chase sean.

I guess the first place I will start is with the pke meter. I like the idea that it was turned into a tazor like weapon.

I don't recall if any of us had put that in our stories but I remember thinking for years that with the advent of technology why don't we do something like that to the pke.

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PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 8:36 am 
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I'm sure we'd all wanted it at one point or another, but I don't think anybody even knew it could be done. It's kinda sad that it was only ever used on the Mini-Pufts though, I would've loved to have seen it used on the Terror Dog that had followed Egon home before it killed him.

One thing I'm glad they did was show the advantages and disadvantages of the gunner seat by almost having Pheobe slam into a narrow bridge

One of the things that bugged me about the movie is that when Egon tried to tell the others about Gozer coming back, again, is that nobody believed him. I honestly believe that Egon wouldn't have sounded like a crackpot while he explained it, because that is so out of character for him that it just seems like somebody on the writing team dropped the damned ball on that, and the writing team was all of 3 people, Dan included.

Oh, did anyone see the mid and end credits scenes?

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PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 10:48 am 
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Certainly never occured to me to add a weapon function to the PKE but it does make a lot of sense, as does the addition of a camera to the ecto-goggles.

I do kind of wonder if it would be that effective on a non-corporeal entity though. A PKE is much too small to have a nuclear component (the way they explode in the cartoon notwithstanding) so I'd imagine it's just regular electricity, not protons but maybe they didn't think about it while making the movie. And the impression I got from the scene is that Egon tased himself to prevent the terror dog from possessing him and retrieving the trap, which is what caused his heart attack. Kinda dark for a family film, lol.

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PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 12:51 pm 
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TheRazorsEdge wrote:
Certainly never occured to me to add a weapon function to the PKE but it does make a lot of sense, as does the addition of a camera to the ecto-goggles.

I do kind of wonder if it would be that effective on a non-corporeal entity though. A PKE is much too small to have a nuclear component (the way they explode in the cartoon notwithstanding) so I'd imagine it's just regular electricity, not protons but maybe they didn't think about it while making the movie. And the impression I got from the scene is that Egon tased himself to prevent the terror dog from possessing him and retrieving the trap, which is what caused his heart attack. Kinda dark for a family film, lol.


It's probably hell on the battery in the thing too--something that's basically a one-time last-ditch desperation move.

Now I have to wonder if I should have John experiment with something like that with the GBX :lol:

The Ecto-Goggle camera, on the other hand, sounds a lot like "Why didn't anybody come up with that before now?" type things. (Kinda like the RC trap.)

There's talk in my family of possibly trying to go as a group (Ogre, one of our other brothers, me) to see the movie soon. With all the "Well, so okay, Movie Egon is fucked up beyond all repair now" musings over with, I do want to see everything else.

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PostPosted: November 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm 
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Just don't forget to stay till the end of the credits. Like all Marvel movies, there's a mid credit and end credit scene.

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PostPosted: November 23rd, 2021, 8:48 pm 
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I thought it was very well done. If you'd have told me before hand that the Ghostbusters would only be in it for a few minutes at the end I'd have been disappointed, but I thought the story was told so well that it was the perfect cameo. I think with child actors it is very easy to be annoyed by them so I give 100% credit to the cast, especially Mckenna Grace who I thought did an incredible job as Phoebe. There were a few plot holes and bits and pieces that weren't great, but it tugged on the emotions so much that they're easy to overlook. When you're a huge fan of a franchise and you wait so long for it I think it's very easy to go into a film like this with hopes set too high and with a critical eye ready to pounce on things you don't like, but it just gripped me, I became so invested in the characters so quickly, I wasn't just waiting for the GBs. I'm not ashamed to admit I was very choked up at the final scene.

There are a lot of things from my childhood I have remained passionate about throughout my life, Transformers and TMNT being two big ones. I have hated the recent films of those franchises. I'm not one to get too frustrated about it, the old stuff that I love is still there and there are still great new comics etc. being produced to satiate me, so for Ghostbusters: Afterlife to have been so enjoyable is a massive plus in my book. I saw the film on Friday and it still has me in a good mood as I type this in the wee hours of Wednesday morning. Oh, and my kids who are of the YouTube short attention span generation loved it and were gripped by every minute.

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PostPosted: November 26th, 2021, 12:21 pm 
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I apologise in advance for the wall of text.
 
First I'd like to say that I really, really liked the film. I still have issues with some of it, but to see Ghostbusters on screen again in its original form after so long was just... it was such a blast.  

It appears I'm not the only one that is confused about certain aspects of this movie, so these are the things I came away puzzled about: 

- Why did Egon's ghost lead Phoebe to the hidden trap? The guy died dealing with the terror dogs, and he's just leading his granddaughter to a trap that contains one like it's no big deal? Why hide it in the first place? And, if he wanted the trap open and the terror dog unleashed, why did he trap the terror dog in the first place? It would have made more sense that Phoebe discovered it on her own accidentally, and Egon's ghost warns her not to open it but Grooberson opens it anyway. 
- Why would Ray Stantz, a guy who has a tattoo on his arm referencing Revelations 6:12 (judgement day or the end of the world) and who is the only subscriber to Podcast's Paranormal Podcast NOT believe Egon when Egon lets him know he thinks the end of the world is going to happen? In fact, why would ANY of the OG ghostbusters not believe Egon when he says there is a threat from Gozer coming? If the business was drying up anyway, as Ray suggested in his phone call, then why wouldn't any of them go with Egon to investigate something which might lead to more business?
- What was the point of Ivo Shandor being resurrected only for him to be torn in two by Gozer seconds later?
- Why does Callie not know ANYTHING about her father, not even the type of scientist he was? Why didn't her mother tell Callie anything about him?
- Callie speaks as if Egon abandoned them all when she was just a baby, so she never got a chance to know him. The first date I saw on the pictures timeline was 1983 - so Callie was born BEFORE the first film? He left for the Farmhouse around 2000 I think, so he left when she was 17? And if he left when she was 17, why didn't she know anything about him? Did Egon seriously just up and leave his family for no significant reason before GB1?
- If Egon was married with a child before the first film, then why was he hugging Janine in GB1? If they've retconned the E/J relationship by having Egon married with a child in GB1, why were we seeing images of them together in Afterlife as if they were a couple? Since Janine struggled to define her relationship with Egon when talking to Callie, did that suggest he was having an affair with her? If that's the case, did the affair begin in GB1 and they've been secretly on-and-off ever since?
- Who sent Egon those pictures of Callie? If it was Egon's wife and she wasn't estranged from him, why wasn't she more involved in his life before the move to the Farmhouse, and again, why didn't she tell Callie anything about him?
- Why didn't Egon call his family just to keep in touch? If he loved his daughter enough to keep treasured photos of her, then why not pick up the phone and call her? If there's no phone at the Farmhouse, he could have used a payphone somewhere. Or maybe sent her letters? Related to this, why didn't he provide proof to the OG ghostbusters that Gozer's mine existed? Or even that the whole entire town of Summerville was built by Ivo Shandor - as Lucky says, his name is all over the place! 
- Why didn't Janine tell the OG ghostbusters what was going on in Oklahoma? She obviously kept in touch with them. If she was the only one who met up with Egon during the time he was at the Farmhouse, why didn't she know what was going on with the Mine and Temple?


I'd heard some spoilers and read the reviews which made me prepared for some things, but what shook me was the hatred that Ray had for Egon. I was just so unprepared for that! Telling Phoebe that Egon could burn in hell was just gut punching and I think it was really unnecessary. Could they not have left each other on better terms than that? 

Why didn't they just have Ray sending Egon off to Oklahoma keep an eye on the Shandor Mine while he kept an eye on the Firehouse in New York? They could have been keeping up with each other, and then when Phoebe calls Ray's Occult instead of Egon, Ray would have just been firing on all cylinders knowing something went wrong out there. Then we could have had a quick montage that would have been Ray turning up at various places getting the rest of the guys together with the OG ghostbusters theme playing over the top of it or something instead of all of them just appearing in the middle of a field wearing their jumpsuits fully equipped. Meanwhile, as Ray is distracted by the situation in Oklahoma and away from the Firehouse, the red light on the ECU begins to flash. He drives Ecto-1 back to New York with Winston afterwards over the bridge with another great conversation about the afterlife and when they get back to the Firehouse uh-oh...

It's like Egon abandoning his family... a little bit unnecessary when the alternatives could have been a lot better and more importantly, kept these characters in character. 


The film made me nostalgic for GB1, RGB & EGB. The first film set everything up and then the cartoons effortlessly followed on and expanded upon that universe. It just demonstrates how difficult it is to really recapture that. GB:Afterlife didn't manage to expand the universe and posed more questions than answers. 

The surviving original ghostbusters didn't really get much time to shine, but I suppose this was always going to be the problem for a 'passing the torch' sequel. You focus on the new guys a bit more at the expense of the old guys. Winston's best scenes came in an end-of-credits sequence that a lot of the audience would have missed if they'd have left beforehand - which they did at my showing.

As for Egon, there seemed to be a lot of people hating the guy in this film. Seems a little strange to have a film which is dedicated to this character, when they add such animosity towards him from the characters. Yeah, I get the whole Bill Murray feud thing, sure. But within the ghostbusters universe, either tell that story with a bit of sensitivity, keeping the characters in character or leave it out for those members of the audience who don't know Bill and Harold's personal relationship towards each other. The townspeople hated him, his daughter hated him, Ray Stantz hated him... IMO it's a bit much. Either balance that out by having Janine telling people how much she loved him and how they had a warm, loving relationship together, or have a bit more of the OG ghostbusters reminiscing about him, just so that the audience don't spend too long with the idea that this guy was a complete asshole.


So, what can E/J fans take away from this film? On the face of it, not a whole lot considering they seem to have retconned the GB1 relationship by having Egon married with a child during the events of the film, although at least it finally puts to bed the idea that Egon was a cold, emotionless robot. But I don't think things are too dire - Janine checked in on him at the Farmhouse more than anyone else, so there's that at least. What I find particularly interesting is that the E/J lucky coin scene has gone from being a deleted scene to now being integrated into GB1 canon. The last time the audience sees Egon, he's hugging Janine. The only other person he hugs is Callie. Personally, I left the film thinking that the Egon/Janine relationship was actually quite significant rather than something that was either non-existent or just fleeting and relegated to the past. 

However, there now seems to be a strange disconnect from what we've seen of Egon's life on-screen and what we now know happened off-screen. Egon had this whole personal life off-screen with a wife and child, and yet on-screen the only woman who has been there through his life as a constant has been Janine. The years he spent at the Farmhouse seems to suggest that Janine was more important to him than his own wife and child, because he allowed her back in his life but pushed everyone else out of it. I'm not surprised that there are people on social media who have seen the film and still think that Janine is Callie's mother, despite Callie not knowing who Janine was when they meet at the Farmhouse. The fact that Janine stumbles over her words when she talks of her relationship with him leads me to think that they were a couple at some point - either after the events of GB1 and it was an on-off thing, or after the events of GB2 leading up to his death. Regardless of when it happened, it was private and personal to the both of them, and in a way I kind of like that. 

Personally, I'd like to think they regained some of their old relationship in the intervening years, but maybe that's just me fanwishing. Warm nights, cold drinks, a bit of smooth Jazz playing in the background as he works on the equipment. Far away from New York and the rest of his family. Only Janine to occasionally keep him company. Confiding in her and reminiscing about the old times. You know what I'm saying here, right? ;) 8-)

Anyhow, for the future I'd like to see RGB revisited in some form - more cartoons, maybe comics. If we're going for more ghostbusters on a live-action TV show I'd like to see the original characters re-cast and going back to post-Gozer days but rebooting it so that they are still working after the events of GB1 (basically IDW's comics timeline). I suppose we'll end up seeing Egon's wife in there sometime, but beforehand could we get some freaking closure on the Egon/Janine relationship - have them date canonically a little and then break up, or give us a glimpse of the long-running affair that seems to be subtly hinted at in Afterlife? For the films, we can carry on where Afterlife left off and bring the kids to New York with Winston to deal with that pesky exploding containment unit. Maybe have Janine turning up occasionally to act as a substitute grandmother and occasionally reminisce about what Egon was like in those years she was with him - maybe to help tone down the whole 'crazy old man Egon' vibe that is going on in Afterlife. There ya go, that way you get the best of all ghostbusters worlds. 

Oh, and Gozer should be banned from this franchise for the next ten years. Or twenty.

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PostPosted: November 26th, 2021, 1:24 pm 
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nikki wrote:
I apologise in advance for the wall of text.


It was all very insightful, so no need to apologize.

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I'm not surprised that there are people on social media who have seen the film and still think that Janine is Callie's mother, despite Callie not knowing who Janine was when they meet at the Farmhouse.


I still haven't seen the movie yet. But especially the way you describe some of the bonecrunchingly awful retcons we got I have to half wonder if Jason actually did want to establish Janine as Callie's mom, but somebody--the Ramis family?-- were buttholes about itobjected. So in the end JR says basically NOTHING about Callie's Mom while painting a surprisingly sympathetic portrait of Egon and Janine in spots.

But since there's NOTHING about Callie's Mom, well, there's always room to speculate. I mean, I hate flogging my own stories, but what if Movie Egon really did live some version of GBOT Egon's Dad's tragedy? Callie's Mom died young and Movie Egon kind of tried to shut himself off, letting (to continue the flight of fancy) Callie's Mom's family raise her? Then he cofounds Ghostbusters and meets his equivalent of GBOT Egon's Mom...I mean, as I've said for ages, it's tough to make this scenario not have Movie Egon look like some level of jerk. It's just a matter of how much.

And then the other night my subconscious took a page from IDW's notebook. I had this dream where we find out about Callie's Mom...and she's this flashy, ascerbic Brooklynite who looks like a redheaded Cindy Lauper and her voice sounded suspiciously like that of Laura Summer. Turning the Roger Baugh joke on its head, as it were. :roll:

Goddamnit having Janine as Callie's Mom would have made this a 500% less aggravating movie.

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PostPosted: November 26th, 2021, 3:07 pm 
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Callie's last name is Spengler but they say repeatedly she's "never met" her dad. Egon keeps a wall of photos of Callie revealing that he cared and couldn't be there rather than wouldn't, and on it there are post-it notes. I caught the dates "1983" and "1987" on them, indicating she was born before GB1.

The characters in the movie just assume that guarding the Shandor mine was the reason he wasn't in Callie's life, but he couldn't have left to do that before 1990, so...

The picture that paints to me is Egon is divorced in the first movie. Probably a bad break-up to a contentious individual who did not want to share custody. (I suspect courts don't rule favorably towards guardians who've dabbled in trepanation, lol) Or he could've simply agreed to stay away because that's what the mother wanted and he was honoring her wishes, like Captain Kirk in Star Trek 2, as I suggested in the other thread.

If that's the case, I'm actually perfectly happy with it because it's the smoothest possible path with the least retcons, and going through such a rough break-up could explain why movie-Egon, while clearly willing to share at least some part of his life with Janine all the way up until his death (note that Janine's the *only* one he stayed in contact with, she's already there in Oklahoma and wasn't there specifically to meet Callie, didn't even know Callie was coming, maybe she's even the one who found the body, she supported him financially while he spent 30 years on a farm that produced no crops, she struggles to describe their relationship to Callie before settling on the word "friend", and she still reminisces over the World's Fair coin), was never comfortable enough to make it an official relationship. They must've had something but perhaps he just wasn't a guy who believed in marriage anymore or wasn't comfortable with commitment from being burned so badly before.

As far as Ray not believing Egon, I chalk that up 100% to Ray being angry still. Egon killed the business. Ray's dream job. And the bills were all in Ray's name thanks to that triple-mortgage on his childhood home. I will agree that the movie is a bit unnecessarily rough on Egon before the end but I think it's telling that immediately after the "rot in Hell" line, Ray regrets it and is sad to hear Egon's dead.

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PostPosted: November 26th, 2021, 8:10 pm 
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nikki wrote:

- Why would Ray Stantz, a guy who has a tattoo on his arm referencing Revelations 6:12 (judgement day or the end of the world) and who is the only subscriber to Podcast's Paranormal Podcast NOT believe Egon when Egon lets him know he thinks the end of the world is going to happen? In fact, why would ANY of the OG ghostbusters not believe Egon when he says there is a threat from Gozer coming? If the business was drying up anyway, as Ray suggested in his phone call, then why wouldn't any of them go with Egon to investigate something which might lead to more business?


Apparently, it was because Egon had done research into more 'end of the world' scenarios and possible big bads that didn't come close to panning out. When he finally got a hit on Summerville, the others didn't believe him at all. That's why he had to go it alone.

Information came from TVTropes and can be located next to Crying Wolf and Heroic Sacrifice on the page in the link provided.

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PostPosted: November 27th, 2021, 11:54 am 
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Fritz wrote:
I still haven't seen the movie yet. But especially the way you describe some of the bonecrunchingly awful retcons we got I have to half wonder if Jason actually did want to establish Janine as Callie's mom, but somebody--the Ramis family?-- were buttholes about itobjected. So in the end JR says basically NOTHING about Callie's Mom while painting a surprisingly sympathetic portrait of Egon and Janine in spots.


This is exactly it. The scene with Janine and Callie especially left me thinking that there should have been more to it, as if there should have been more of a reason for her to turn up there. There are some people on social media who mentioned that Callie also seems very Janine-like, and I can see that, too.

It does feel as if they wanted to make Janine Callie’s mother, but for whatever reason they just couldn’t or wouldn’t. I don’t know if it was the Ramis family, because there still seems to be a subtext that Janine and Egon were in a relationship at some point and I’m not sure they would have wanted that, so... I dunno…

It seems odd that Janine has more (on-screen) significance in Egon's life than the mother of his only child.

Fritz wrote:
But since there's NOTHING about Callie's Mom, well, there's always room to speculate. I mean, I hate flogging my own stories, but what if Movie Egon really did live some version of GBOT Egon's Dad's tragedy? Callie's Mom died young and Movie Egon kind of tried to shut himself off, letting (to continue the flight of fancy) Callie's Mom's family raise her? Then he cofounds Ghostbusters and meets his equivalent of GBOT Egon's Mom...I mean, as I've said for ages, it's tough to make this scenario not have Movie Egon look like some level of jerk. It's just a matter of how much.


TheRazorsEdge wrote:
The picture that paints to me is Egon is divorced in the first movie. Probably a bad break-up to a contentious individual who did not want to share custody. (I suspect courts don't rule favorably towards guardians who've dabbled in trepanation, lol) Or he could've simply agreed to stay away because that's what the mother wanted and he was honoring her wishes, like Captain Kirk in Star Trek 2, as I suggested in the other thread.


I think Fritz’s concept would work better, because if there had been a bad breakup with someone who didn’t want Egon anywhere near their daughter, why would they then send him photos of her? That’s the point I made earlier – if Egon was estranged from his wife and Egon was absent from his daughter’s life, then where did the photos come from?

If Callie’s mother died and Egon left heartbroken, the photos could have been sent by Callie’s mom’s family. Callie then wouldn’t know about Egon because Callie’s mother’s family didn’t know much about him and therefore couldn’t tell her anything apart from him being a scientist.

You do find yourself wondering about Callie’s mother after watching this film. Callie does seem a bit of a mess, and it seems like the men in her life have failed her so you inevitably find yourself thinking about the only person who apparently didn’t fail her, who just happens to be the only one she doesn’t mention during the entire film.

I feel that the conversation between Grooberson and Callie on their date was significant. There are obviously echoes of the past in that conversation, where she talks about Phoebe and Trevor’s dad who left, just as Egon left Callie and her mother. Grooberson tells Callie she was a great mom and says that at least she stayed around to look after her kids. But who stayed around to look after Callie?

I'm wondering if there might be some clues hidden somewhere in that wall of photos. I'm definitely going to take a closer look at that when it comes out on streaming.

Fritz wrote:
Goddamnit having Janine as Callie's Mom would have made this a 500% less aggravating movie.


It certainly would have left the audience with fewer unanswered questions.

egon901 wrote:
Apparently, it was because Egon had done research into more 'end of the world' scenarios and possible big bads that didn't come close to panning out. When he finally got a hit on Summerville, the others didn't believe him at all. That's why he had to go it alone.


Well, that makes more sense, but I’m not sure that’s made very clear in the film. I missed the mention of “Another Temple”. Did Ray mention it in the phonecall? I think I must have assumed Ray was talking about the Gozer Temple.

TheRazorsEdge wrote:
As far as Ray not believing Egon, I chalk that up 100% to Ray being angry still. Egon killed the business. Ray's dream job. And the bills were all in Ray's name thanks to that triple-mortgage on his childhood home.


Yeah, I think Ray did mention something about the mortgage in his phonecall. I think you’re right – Egon cleaned him out. Yikes. No wonder he was angry. That does make sense.



Another thing that struck me after watching the movie is that none of the OG ghostbusters knew Egon had a family, but Janine did because she called Callie to let her know about Egon’s death. Ray didn’t know about Phoebe and Peter seemed surprised when Callie told him her surname was ‘Spengler’. So he hadn’t told the guys about his family while he was with them during GB1/2.

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PostPosted: November 27th, 2021, 3:27 pm 
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So...I just got back from a little expedition with Ogre, our youngest brother, our youngest brother's significant other, and one of their friends...

In other words, I has seen it now.




I enjoyed it more than I expected to, to be honest.


None of my criticisms of the massive retconning of Movie Egon's backstory are withdrawn.

In fact, after seeing it, some of my criticism is even sharper.


Like: they couldn't even throw us the bone of
:janine: --We spoke on the phone. I guess I'm your stepmom.

And the lucky coin scene at the end...on the one hand, that's now Movie Canon and not just a deleted scene. On the other hand, it felt like it was just rubbing it in a little bit.

There'll be a longer commentary when I have time and have processed it a little more.

Quote:
There are some people on social media who mentioned that Callie also seems very Janine-like, and I can see that, too.


Yeah...I definitely found myself going a couple of times "That could be/should have been SO Melnitz of her"

The movie as a whole was awesome.

It's still a trainwreck to this Egon, Janine, and Egon/Janine fan. In part because it's obvious now how little would need to be changed to make not that character trainwreck.

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PostPosted: November 27th, 2021, 6:57 pm 
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Doberman
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Location: Los Angeles, CA.
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There are some theories on TVTropes that Egon has a type, that Callie's mom was also from Brooklyn and whatever happened between Egon and her didn't dull those feelings. That's why he was 'attracted' to Janine. Also, through some of the dialogue, it seems that Egon left his family later in life instead of when she was young. He wasn't there all the time, just kinda in and out because of Ghostbusers and his other research, but then he went to Summerville and cut all contact. I can understand that he wanted to protect his family and friends, but dropping his daughter a line every once in a while would help a lot. Of course, it probably would've helped if he'd had a source of income to pay for the phone call. Hell, he probably could've done a Doc Brown and been a electronics repair guy as his day job for all those years and been able to do his 'save the world' thing by night.

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